Lebanese MTV interview with Mu'ammar al-Gadhafi [Broadcast by Libyan TV]
[Interviewer] Your Excellency, Col [Qadhafi]: Good evening. We present to you the first question: Whom are you defying? How far would you go in confronting the world?

[Qadhafi] Thank you for the interview and the questions... In fact, I do not seek defiance or conflict. On the contrary, we are a small nation, and we are one Arab nation which is weak and under attack - a nation which wants to wake up from a long colonialist era. What I mean is that we need peace and stability in order to build ourselves up after the long colonial period so that we become independent militarily and economically. Therefore, we do not seek defiance. In reply to your question: why, how long and whom are you defying? I say: It [defiance] is imposed on me. I face challenges in the name of the Arabs. There are challenges imposed on the Arabs to make them accept the [existence of ] so-called Israel... Possible rise of black state and black army in USA America is a mosaic composed of many races. Conflict will eventually break out because we are in the era of the people, the masses [Arabic: jamahiri]. In this era there is a possibility that a black state might rise! in America with the largest black army in the world; it would be the black American army because America has half a million black soldiers and officers in the US army. If half a million black soldiers break away from the US army - there is no black army with half a million soldiers on the planet - it would be the largest black army in the world... "All Arabs should be Muslim"

[Q] All the Lebanese are listening to you now. You know that Lebanon suffered from religious war. Maybe this war was imposed on it or had its roots from inside. However, the war of factions in Lebanon lasted 20 years and your position in this respect is that Lebanese Christians should convert to Islam, which has stirred negative reactions, as you know, because a person cannot change religion.
[A] There should be a positive reaction not a negative one.

[Q] Positive to convert to Islam? Don't you think this is a form of repression and an infringement on freedom?
[A] You said in your question that Lebanon suffered from sectarian war. If Lebanon were all Muslim, if all the population in Lebanon was Muslim there would have been no war.

[Q] Would you ask Muslims to convert to Christianity?
[A] I have no objection if all Lebanon's population was Christian Arab as long as there was no religious conflict among them. But what is right is that all Arabs should be Muslim. If all Lebanon's population was Muslim there would not be a conflict inside Lebanon. The reason [for conflict] is because we are Arabs but our religions vary. Even within the same religion there are factions...

[Q] Why is there an impression that Qadhafi is a dictator?
[A] [Laughs] This is propaganda, like the one which says that Muhammad is not a prophet. Don't you Christians say that Muhammad is not a prophet? Would I stand a better chance than Prophet Muhammad, who was accused of not being a prophet despite the fact that he was God's Prophet, let alone what they say about Qadhafi being a dictator?

[Q] Why is it then that in the West and in the USA they accuse you of terrorism or recklessness, even in the Arab world there is the impression that Qadhafi is like any other Arab ruler who rules dictatorially. Is this true?
[A] Tell me, those who call Qadhafi a dictator, what would they call the Lebanese fighters who are resisting the Israeli occupation in southern Lebanon? They call them terrorists. Then it is clear. If those who fight to defend their occupied homeland are called terrorists, why are you surprised that they call Qadhafi a dictator?...

[Q] Did you not at one time contribute to the Lebanese war by financing some organizations and movements in Lebanon?
[A] We cannot deny, we cannot lie to the Arab citizen. In previous periods there were intense conflicts and the Libyan revolution had to be present. So it was present with the national organizations. Yet, we were not with the Christians or the Muslims. We were with the revolutionary and national forces...

[Q] Are you thinking of visiting Lebanon?
[A] God willing. I have no objection if Beirut airport receives me with a Libyan aircraft and there is no embarrassment to our Lebanese brothers, then I am ready to go aboard a Libyan aircraft... Lockerbie case

[Q] What do you expect from the USA; what do you expect America to do in such a case or the UN which imposed the embargo?
[A] Of course it is America which is manipulating the so-called UN to achieve all its expansions in the world, its encroachments and arrogance. This is a known fact. America is making Libya pay for a case in which it was not indicted. Libya would never succumb to the Iraqi scenario. And we would never continue to succumb to such a scenario. We shall defy it and force them to find a solution because we will never yield to occupation. This is a very grave colonization scheme. Libya has been besieged for five years in a case in which it was not indicted. It is only a [matter of two] ordinary Libyans being suspects in the crash of a civilian aircraft.

[Q] Why do you not consider turning these two defendants over to an international court, [the International Court of Justice in] The Hague for instance, for investigation and put an end to the problem?
[A] We are ready to have them tried in Libya or a third country. We are ready, no doubt about that.

[Q] So what is the problem?
[A] America said: Give us your children to try them in America; and Britain said: No, bring them for trial in Britain.

[Q] Can they not agree on a third court?
[A] Do you know the defendants in Khubar, Saudi Arabia - if they were known - America would ask Saudi Arabia to send them to America to be tried there. America wants to try all our children there as if we had no laws or sovereignty and the law is American law, the judge an American judge. We have judges, laws and our sovereignty.

[Q] You said that the aircraft crashed because of weather conditions. In another interview you said you knew who brought the aircraft down.
[A] They know who brought the aircraft down. The Western countries know for sure who brought the aircraft down. They at least know it was not Libya.

[Q] Do you yourself know who it was?
[A] No, we do not know who it was. If we knew who did it we would have said so, but we do not know. They know at least that it was not Libya which brought the Pan Am aircraft down. However, they are forcing Libya to pay for this accusation as if it had been proved guilty. Libya will never submit to the whim of America. That is racism. Berlin explosion and US bombing of Libya

[Q] Regarding the Berlin explosion, which led to the bombing of Libya, one of the culprits was arrested recently. She is a German deported from Greece. Does this German woman clear the record of Libya and would America pay compensation in this case?
[A] Very well, this is more evidence. Libya was bombed for a case that was not heard in a court to identify who carried out the explosion in Berlin, and the investigation of the evidence is still going on, yet America punished Libya for committing this crime. This is a precedent. This accusation, like the Lockerbie accusation, proves that Libya is being punished before being tried .

[Q] If it was proved that this woman was affiliated to world terrorist groups which had decided to carry out the Berlin explosion, would you demand the UN or America for compensation for the sanctions? Or do you have any connection with this woman?
[A] We have no connection with this woman and we will demand compensation for the Lockerbie case as well. We will demand compensation for all the losses sustained by the Libyan people. Chemical weapons

[Q] Along with the Lockerbie case, Libya is also accused of producing chemical weapons, despite the fact that nobody reacts when Israel is producing these weapons. In a press statement, you said that you were ready to accept [foreign] experts [to come to Libya] to confirm that there were no chemical weapons. But, if it is proved that Libya does not possess chemical weapons, you said that you would not accept that they just apologize and leave the country. What are your conditions?
[A] Well, we have conditions before any investigation team arrives in Libya. We are convinced that once in Libya, this team will not find a chemical plant. We do not want this team to come and say: We are sorry. No, No. If it is proved that there is no chemical plant, then the international community should assume its responsibility.

[Q] What would happen next?
[A] We prefer not to say anything now. we will react at the right time.

[Q] Would you hold the experts or the international community responsible for that?
[A] No, no. It would be for the states which accused Libya of having such a chemical plant, to assume their responsibility... They must pay the price for this accusation and the investigation.

[Q] In your statement, you were sincere and you said you had chemical weapons?
[A] I did not say we have chemical weapons, no.

[Q] You said it was possible for Libya to produce chemical weapons?
[A] No, I said no one can prevent us [from possessing chemical weapons]... The tactic adopted by the USA consists of banning the production of chemical weapons, because the chemical bomb is called the nuclear bomb of the poor. The poor can produce a chemical bomb, but they are not capable of making a nuclear bomb. The USA can produce a nuclear bomb. So it is banning the production of chemical weapons so that nobody can do so. By doing so, the USA wants to remain the only one to possess the nuclear weapon. Now, for its own interest, the USA is putting forward another issue by trying to ban mines and their use in war. Why? Because America, thanks to its powerful weapons, can destroy a plant, a missile, an aircraft, an airport... But the USA cannot destroy one million mines planted all over the place. The USA cannot destroy them. Resorting to mines is a way for a small peoples to defend themselves against the US army... Relations with USA

[Q] Is there any mediation to re-establish relations with the US administration and Clinton?
[A] Clinton is in fact a nice man. We do not hate him at all. We had problems with Bush and Reagan. But he [Clinton] is powerless. America is governed by windmills, octopuses and nightmares [as heard], such as the CIA, the Jewish lobby and the Pentagon.

[Q] You mean Clinton does not have a free hand?
[A] No he does not. They use him. Poor man, I do sympathize with him. They have even created problems between him and his wife.

[Q] Why do you not personally contact him and show him your sympathy?
[A] He is afraid they would tell him: You have contacted Qadhafi and have become his lackey and a traitor.

[Q] So there is no problem with Clinton?
[A] No at all; he is powerless. He is a man of peace and wishes to do good.

[Q] Is any contact possible and do you have any objection to the normalization of relations with the USA?
[A] We welcome the normalization of relations of mutual interest and respect. It is America which is punishing itself...

[Q] Have you defined any plan to confront America?
[A] Our way of fighting is to mobilize the Libyan people, the Arab world, the international community, the Islamic world and all peoples of the Third World and even the First World or the Second which are being destroyed by America... We are expecting the US-led NATO [forces] to land at any time on North African shores. We are talking about military imperialism here. The US forces currently training and holding military exercises with the Egyptian army are doing so to occupy Egypt. The USA can occupy Egypt at any time... Defence of southern Lebanon by Hezbollah

[Q] If we go back to Lebanon and the continuing war there, naturally you greeted the resistance and considered it [changes thought] - which is so-called terrorism while it is a nation defending its territory and this is the opinion of the whole of Lebanon - now we have a particular case in Lebanon, we go back to Syria for arbitration in all the issues which occur on our territory. There is a Syrian quasi-tutelage in Lebanon known to all; maybe Lebanon needs it now if we take into consideration its situation after the war, which is not a sound one. Are you for the idea of annexing Lebanon to Syria?
[A] I am for the idea of annexing Syria to Lebanon. [Journalist laughs] On this occasion I call on the Lebanese youth to join the resistance in order to free the occupied Arab land. It is not becoming when we hear continuously that the pro-Iranian Hezbollah carried out a liberation operation in occupied southern Lebanon. Does this mean that Lebanon or southern Lebanon belongs to Hezbollah only or to this youth only or to the Shi'i sect only, or does Lebanon and southern Lebanon belong to the Lebanese nation?... Islamic fundamentalism

[Q] Colonel: You have talked about the resistance in the south [of Lebanon] and about Hezbollah, and you said that even if Iran was financing [this party], this is no excuse for anybody to say: Why the resistance? All the Lebanese must resist. However, today the problem in the region is that of fundamentalism. You refused to call it fundamentalism because fundamentalism means the return to fundamentals. Let us call it Islamic extremism, and it exists in the region. What is your position on this extremism, and what is Col Qadhafi doing about the massacres, murders and killings taking place in some states?
[A] First of all we must distinguish between fundamentalism and heresy. In history, there are two movements: there is one called heresy and another called fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is nobility of descent; the revival of the inherited past; adherence to traditions, customs and the glorious heritage which increased our resistance to the Western onslaught and the cultural, colonialist and economic invasion which has pervaded our homes. Our clothes, minds, ideas and cuisine have all changed and have become Western. [The West] occupied our land, treated us with arrogance and destroyed our language. The Arabic language now contains some foreign words... The source of heresy comes from the nations which are Arab and which embraced or were forced to embrace Islam, in other words the pagans, the people of Sind and India, the Persians and others. These people, who had nationalist religions and were forced to embrace Islam, set up an underground movement which rejected Islam with ! Islam. Yes, rejected Islam with Is lam. They put on the cloak of Islam to enter the Islamic group and destroy it. They then created the Da'wah [Call] movement, the jihad, the armed group, the fighting group, the Islamic group, the Da'wah wa al-Tabligh [Call and Proselytize] group and the Hijrah wa al-Takfir [Renunciation and Expiation]. All these are pagan and Afghan terms.

[Q] Is their goal to establish an Islamic state or not?
[A] No, no.

[Q] What is their goal then?
[A] Their goal is to destroy the Arab nation. The origin of these movements and those who inspire them and teach them are the people who reject Islam because Islam was forced upon them by the Arabs. Therefore they have to deal the Arabs a double blow. They go to the Arabs to destroy their pan-Arabism and destroy Islam in the name of Islam. [They tell us:] The Islam you taught us and invaded us with and with which you destroyed our homes, now we are using it...

[Q] Whom do you accuse? Where are they now? In Algeria? I am talking about the people who are (?committing crimes). Not in Iran of course. You do not regard the Islamic Republic of Iran as - [Qadhafi - interrupting] The movement of heresy comes from non-Arab countries and is exported to the Arabs...

[Q] Do you fear for the Arab states from a fundamentalist or heretic invasion? Do you for instance fear for Syria from this fundamentalism - let us not call it fundamentalism - from this terrorism, or for Lebanon or for Egypt that suffered and tried to repress [that movement]?
[A] This heresy appears in every period, it is a storm in a teacup.

[Q] You do not fear for the Arab states?
[A] The situation of these heretic groups is similar to that of the communists at the end of the forties and in the early fifties when communists appeared in the Arab homeland. There were groups which were very extremist and adopted the colour red, blood and assassination, and hoped to turn the Arab countries into communist states. However, it was just a storm in a teacup. In the end, Arab culture, pan-Arabism and the Arab heritage enabled the Arab countries to eliminate them and they were thus finished despite the presence of the then great Soviet Union. Despite that, they failed in the Arab world and did not turn a single Arab country into a communist state...

[Q] Heresy exists also in other states; let us for instance take the example of the Palestinian movements which are anti-Arafat: we find that those movements, for instance Hamas, have a religious extremist thinking similar to that of a number of organizations. Do you for instance have a relationship with these Palestinian organizations which are anti-Arafat?
[A] We support anyone who fights the occupation, the name does not matter to us.

[Q] Even if they are considered to be religious extremist factions?
[A] We are with anybody who fights the enemy.

[Q] If we talk about Hamas for instance, it is considered, as we said, to be an organization of extremists?
[A] No, Hamas is not like that, it is a fundamentalist not an extremist movement.

[Q] A fundamentalist movement?
[A] It is a fundamentalist movement in its origins.

[Q] Fundamentalism in its positive sense, as you talked about it?
[A] In its special way, in the way of the Muslim Brothers, by rejecting pan-Arabism, socialism, progressivism and relations with the Soviet Union. This is how it was in the past; however, it has been forced now, it has found itself in a situation of fighting. It is now a mere faction which fights the enemy for the liberation of Palestine, and should be supported.

[Q] Does Libya support it?
[A] It should be backed. They are not in need. As you asked me whether we support these movements, they have not come to ask for support from Libya. I wish they had asked for support from Libya. They have not come to ask. Hamas, Hezbollah or Jihad have not come.

[Q] They have not asked for support?
[A] They have not come. I do not know why. Even the Palestinian movements which used to fight: the Popular Front [for the Liberation of Palestine], the Democratic Front [for the Liberation of Palestine] and others are all frozen now and nobody is fighting.

[Q] The Hezbollah movement is struggling in southern Lebanon?
[A] But it did not contact Libya. As they say, it is linked with Iran... Disappearance of Lebanese Shi'i Imam Musa Sadr

[Q] Since we are talking about Lebanon, Col Qadhafi, after 20 years, can you clarify the Imam Musa Sadr issue?
[A] I have already clarified this issue in an interview given to an Arab radio in this very same place.

[Q] But we, the Lebanese, are concerned about this issue?
[A] For your information, North Africa's culture is totally Shi'i... Emotionally, we have always been with the Shi'is and there is no hatred, as there is in the Middle East, between the Sunnis and the Shi'is... Therefore, the Shi'is in Lebanon are my friends. I like them and they like me. When I visited the Arab countries, following the 1st September revolution and the death of Jamal Abd al-Nasir, one of the personalities I met was Musa Sadr. Since then, I maintained with him a relationship of friendship and struggle. We invited him to attend, with us, the celebration of the 1st September revolution. Unfortunately, he came and disappeared. I did not see him. I was told that he was angry because I did not receive him with the first delegations. There were many delegations you know. He was angry and left Libya. I was very angry myself and did not understand why he had left. When I asked, I was told that he had left for Rome. After that we heard that Musa Sadr had disappeared.! Where was he? They said he had di sappeared in Libya. So, his visit to Libya, his departure for Rome and his disappearance, was used in circles hostile to Libya to accuse Libya of his disappearance.

[Q] The Lebanese judiciary is saying that, according to the investigation, he [Musa Sadr] did not leave Libya. Still according to the investigation, one of his companions even said that he disappeared inside a hotel in Libya.
[A] No, not at all.

[Q] He [the companion] told me. He said: He was with us and we were asked to go to one of the rooms. But when we entered the room, we did not find him.
[A] These things should not come up in an interview. They must be investigated. A Libyan-Lebanese committee, which will include a third neutral side, must be set up to investigate the ins and outs of this affair.

[Q] Has this committee been set up?
[A] It must be set up and, even if it has not been set up, I am now calling for it to be set up.

[Q] Are you calling for it to be set up.
[A] Yes I call for the setting up of this committee. [I also say that] Musa Sadr left Libya by plane for Rome and that his clothes were found in a Rome hotel.

[Q] It was said that two people left [for Rome] with Sadr's clothes, leaving behind their own clothes.
[A] Come on. Who can confirm such facts?

[Q] They left their passports, personal effects and clothes.
[A] No. Anyone who listens to such talk can refute it and will ask for evidence. Likewise, someone else can come and say: I have seen Musa Sadr travel from Libya to Rome. Moreover, he was at the airport.

[Q] Someone could have passed himself off as Musa Sadr by wearing his clothes and going to Italy.
[A] The person who is saying that they [presumably Sadr and his group] went to Rome can say: Here you are; this is the passenger list; this is Musa Sadr and these are the names of his companions. They flew from Tripoli airport to Rome airport, aboard flight number so and so. They booked into this hotel. This happened.

[Q] But maybe their passports were taken from them and used [by others] to go to Italy, for example.
[A] One can say the exact opposite of this.

[Q] There is no proof; this is an assumption that this is what happened.
[A] Now tell me, what interest do we have in Musa Sadr's disappearance. What for? We are not party to the conflict in Lebanon or the Middle East.

[Q] But Colonel, with such a serious accusation, do you not think that there should be an investigation, by you, to find out what has become of him and where he has gone.
[A] The brothers in Lebanon, or rather those who are asking for Musa Sadr, have not reacted favourably [to our request]. Let them come with us. Let me say this: Between you and me, there are people there who have benefited from Musa Sadr's disappearance in order to replace him.

[Q] In Rome?
[A] To replace him. This is a well-known fact. There are Shi'is who rejoiced at Musa Sadr's disappearance because they replaced him...

[Q] So why has a committee not been set up, as you have suggested? A mixed committee.
[A] Yes, I am calling, and I realize what I am saying, for the setting up of a committee to examine the Musa Sadr affair. This committee will come to Libya to find out what happened since 1982 [when Musa Sadr disappeared].

[Q] The committee will be safe?
[A] Of course.

[Q] It will be safe and it can come and investigate?
[A] It can look for anything. I take it upon myself. It can look anywhere. It can question anyone until the whole truth is established... Request for abolition of capital punishment turned down You said, when you introduced me, that I was proud to be the most dangerous man in the world. This is not true. I am not proud. I have been given this [title] to give the impression that I am dangerous.

[Q] The dangerous element may come from your defiance of the West. So what?
[A] Then, there are the reports about the execution of anyone who [changes thought] - that is not the case. A law was issued on the advent of the revolution to make party politics a criminal offence. I did not threaten anybody with execution. On the contrary, for your information, I put a request to the people's committees asking them to abolish capital punishment in Libya so that Libya would become the first Arab, Muslim and Middle Eastern country to abolish capital punishment. The people's committees in Libya turned down this request and said that the Koran ordered capital punishment... Expulsion of Palestinians

[Q] When we talk to Col Qadhafi about the expulsion of Palestinians, following the signing of agreements between the Israelis and the Arabs, agreements you considered as mistakes, and about not allowing the Palestinians to return home, why is it that every time there is a difference between you and Chairman Arafat, it is followed by the deportation of Palestinians from Libya and the confiscation of their money?
[A] It is not true that every time there is a disagreement [between Arafat and Qadhafi], Palestinians are deported. After an Arab country recognized so-called Israel and after some Arab countries welcomed Israeli ambassadors, called charge d'affaires, sent charge d'affaires to Tel Aviv, Israeli leaders visited in total freedom Arab countries from the Atlantic to the Gulf and Arafat went to the White House, we said to the Palestinians: You are not refugees anymore. You have been refugees in Libya for many years; today you have a state and there has been a mutual recognition [between the Israelis and the Palestinians]. They [Palestinians] said: We are going to our country. Everyone said: My town is Nablus, Hebron etc.

[Q] It was the Palestinians who decided to go?
[A] Of course. They said they wanted to join their families and go back to their farms. They left. When they reached the Libyan-Egyptian border, they were stopped and asked about their destination. They said they were going to their country and that Palestine was the West Bank and Gaza Strip where there was a Palestinian National Authority...

[Q] Do you think that there should be a prompt action and a forced return ?
[A] If the traditional Palestinian leaderships are not serious, I call on the youth in the Palestinian camps, in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan to liberate their people and families and bring them to Palestine. This is the holy march, without rifles and fighting. With olive branches and white doves we will return to Palestine. This is the bomb which will rock the earth... Readiness to take "aircraft of friendship" to USA

[Q] An Arab citizen wonders whether you are ready to send tonight, through the MTV, a message of peace and reconciliation to the American president and people?
[A] That is fine. From this TV, I call on the US president and say that Libya is friendly with those who are friendly with it and is an enemy of those who are its enemies. There are mutual interests between the two peoples. There should not be any hostility between the Libyan and American peoples; and there are huge possibilities between the two countries and these are likely to serve the interests of Libya and the USA. We wish to have balanced relations without interference in the two countries'internal affairs. I am ready to meet the American president if the imperialist circles in the USA allow him to meet Qadhafi. But these circles will not allow him to meet Qadhafi. We will send an invitation; if he wants to visit me, he is welcome. If he wants to receive me, I am ready to take the aircraft and go there.

[Q] The aircraft of the challenge?
[A] Yes. But not necessarily the aircraft of the challenge, it could be the aircraft of friendship. The Kurds and Turkey

[Q] A Kurdish journalist says that you supported the creation of a Kurdish state in Turkey, and we know that the former Turkish prime minister [Tansu Ciller] considered this as a humiliation for Turkey. What is Col Qadhafi's stance on this issue?
[A] My stance is very clear. The Kurds' issue is sacred. The Kurds are a nation like the Turks, the Arabs and the Persians. They have the right to create a state. The borders are known on the map and the Kurds today are scattered. My stance is firm. The Kurdish nation should be independent...

[Q] How do you assess your relations with Turkey today, particularly after the signing of the Turkish-Israeli military agreement?
[A] Libyan-Turkish relations are good and tens or hundreds of Turkish companies are operating in Libya. [Turkish Prime Minister] Erbakan is a member of the World Islamic People's Leadership of which I am the head. Tansu Ciller is our friend and a sister. I know her and our relations with her are good. However, I am not happy about Turkey's foreign policy.